In this episode, Jason Hartman is joined by professor and property investor Michelle. She talks about driverless technology, podcast, and the end of privatized prisons in the U.S. Jason and Michelle also discuss useful property tools such as the Evaluator app, Property Tracker, and Property Fixer, which would help investors evaluate properties, manage portfolios, and analyze property flips.

Announcer 0:00
This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman

Announcer 0:12
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it on now. here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution. Real estate investors.

Jason Hartman 1:03
Welcome to episode number 716. And thank you so much for joining me today. This is your host, Jason Hartman. And we are we are getting up there in the numbers, I tell you a 716 Thank you for being with us for so many years, so many listeners have been with us for a long, long time. And I hope you’re one of them. If you’re new to the show, then dig in and feel free to go back and listen to what we call the back catalogue. There’s a lot of very useful information and, and look, it’s just a small assignment. It’s only 715 episodes. So dig in as much as you like. I’ve got with me, Michelle Hawkins back on the show she was on several episodes ago. She is going to be teaching part of our upcoming event in Phoenix on September 10 and 11th. It’s a first time for this event, where we’re going to be talking about using software to become a better real estate investor in terms of evaluating your investments. That’s the first step right, knowing what you’re getting standardizing data, and then also tracking your investments on an ongoing basis. software can really make the whole thing so, so, so much easier. It’s amazing. Michelle, welcome. How are you?

Michelle 2:23
I’m great, Jason, thanks for having me.

Jason Hartman 2:25
Good. And give our listeners a sense of geography. Where are you located?

Michelle 2:29
I’m in Santa Clara, California, which is the heart of Silicon Valley,

Jason Hartman 2:33
Silicon Valley, a famous place where they don’t make any silicon anymore. By the way. I don’t think I actually I think Intel Intel has, is that a fab that Intel has their I mean, you may not know this, I don’t know it. But they have an office there. Of course in Santa Clara. Silicon Valley is a bit of a misnomer nowadays. Because that manufacturing is mostly done somewhere else. But it’s, it’s certainly the high tech capital of the world, isn’t it?

Michelle 2:58
It is well, it says Designed here in this area usually Yes, exactly.

Jason Hartman 3:03
You know, it’s kind of that American philosophy of we think and they sweat. In other words, the idea being that we outsource manufacturing offshore, to more friendly, more business friendly places that don’t have OSHA and the EPA and all that stuff to deal with. And then you have this whole group of people that actually thinks that, you know, China can be polluted, but we got to have really strict environmental regulations here is if we don’t, as john F. Kennedy said, very fittingly, he said, we all breathe the same air, you know, as if it doesn’t circulate around the world, but less we go on a tangent how Michelle? Right. Yes, this may be a tangent. A little alert a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Oh, gosh. Well, hey, before we dive in and talk about the upcoming event, which I am so excited about. Since you are a professor You’re probably going to be, you’re just going to totally out organize me, I just know this. So this event is probably going to be very organized and very nicely done, folks, if you’ve been to our events before, and you know, you kind of felt that a little bit of it was kind of off the cuff. Well, you’re right, it was this event will probably be much better organized, at the very least, for Michelle’s part of it, maybe not my part, but for Michelle’s part. So we’ll dive into that in a moment. And also, it’s a Buying Event. So we’re going to have several of our teams there are local market specialists as well. But Michelle, before we jumped on the air today, you mentioned Pittsburgh, something big is going on there, isn’t it?

Michelle 4:46
Well, there’s just that new article that came out talking about autonomous vehicles. Yeah, somebody I know likes to talk about those.

Jason Hartman 4:57
Yeah, that that would be yours. Truly, and I tell you folks, this is all coming so much faster than many people think this announcement that Michelle’s mentioning is is an LA Times article. And of course, it’s spread all around the media because all syndicated Luber is about to start giving rides in self driving cars. Yes, the robot cars aren’t coming. The robot cars are here. The article says a fleet of Fords and Volvo’s capable of driving themselves is fully equipped and ready to hit the streets in Pittsburgh within not months, not years, not decades. But within weeks. Yes, within weeks, these cars will be deployed by Uber, the ride hailing company, gosh, I guess that’s a new way. Oh, that. You know what, Michelle, that’s interesting. They use that phrase, the ride hailing company. We used to call this ride sharing And I guess, if there’s not a driver in the car, which is eventually where it’s going, obviously, it’s a ride hailing company where you’re hailing a machine. You’re not sharing a ride with a person. So that’s an interesting distinction, a change in vocabulary there. Experimental robot cars already Prowl streets and highways. But in this case, Uber customers will be in side. Wow. It’s an amazing time to be alive, isn’t it? Yeah,

Michelle 6:33
definitely. I think it’s really exciting because actually, one of the things I don’t like about Uber is that I don’t know who I’m getting in the car with. And if I’m traveling by myself, that’s always made me feel uncomfortable. So this actually, I think, is fantastic.

Jason Hartman 6:49
Well, just in comparison, though, you know, I always like to ask compared to what I mean compared to some stinky dirty taxi. As a woman. You didn’t feel a little more company In an Uber x or Uber black car than you did in some dirty, stinky taxi, the old case, I don’t know, maybe, you know, maybe I mean, look, taxis were marked cars rightly so. I don’t know. You know, that’s an interesting question. I, I as a guy, I felt safer in an Uber. But tell me what you think about that?

Michelle 7:19
Well, I don’t know, the taxi system was just had been around forever. And, you know, who knows how much those folks are vetted and supposedly Ubers drivers are also vetted, but it just seemed like it was more of a company. You know, it just seemed like it had more structure behind it. Whereas an almost anybody could be an Uber driver.

Jason Hartman 7:39
So yeah, fair, fair point. Fair point. Yeah, that’s interesting. So last night, as I mentioned to you, I went to see Star Trek with Fernando and his family, and he’s got two boys, ages 12 and 14. You know, one of the things he says that’s really a burden as a parent is showing referring the kids around to various activities and so forth. And I said he didn’t know the answer to this. I said, you know, okay, can you just, you know, one of the younger boys doesn’t have a smartphone, the older one does. I said, can’t you just have them download the Uber app and jump in an Uber? I mean, I would have done that as a kid. If we had Uber. We didn’t, obviously, but I went all around on my bike. My mother had no idea where I was most of the time. But that was a different era. You know, five years ago when I was a kid. 10 years ago, actually, it was 10 years ago, I think, I don’t even know if that’s legal. Like, would you get arrested? And would your would your kids be taken away by child protective services if you allow a 14 and a 12 year old hail an Uber? I don’t know if the Uber driver or the Lyft driver would pick them up I you know, they they probably have their own requirements, but I’m just kind of wondering, do you your parent, do you know the rules on that?

Michelle 8:57
You know, I don’t know the legal rules. I do know that I know of of a specific child. I think he was around 10 years old who his parents sent him on an Uber to a rehearsal. So I know it’s been done. And I know that there are companies that cater specifically to, you know, driving children around. But

Jason Hartman 9:16
yeah, what I know about those, I

Michelle 9:18
don’t know what they’re called. I mean, they’re usually they’re attached to a specific program, where, you know, if you want your kids to have the after school tutoring, they’ll pick them up from school, take them to the tutoring center, and then maybe even take them to your house. I’m not sure there’s there. You know, there’s always an entrepreneur out there. Yeah, coming up with these ideas, but, but I have two daughters. And so as much as I hate to say it, it, it feels different to have daughters.

Michelle 9:45
And I would not stick them in a car on their own. Just how old are your daughters? They are seven and 10.

Jason Hartman 9:53
So when they’re 16 with me, okay, or I you know, I’m sort of wondering what’s the What’s the rule on that? parents out there, chime in if you want, give us some feedback told

Michelle 10:05
I told the older one I said, when you turn 16, you are getting your license, end of story because I don’t want to drive around anymore.

Jason Hartman 10:13
Right. So maybe it’s safer to be driven than to drive themselves. That’s a strong possibility, you know, because there are other factors with driving themselves, right. But that’s, yeah, definitely interesting. I tell you, if I ever have a daughter, I will lock her up in the house until she’s 35. But she won’t be able to go anywhere. Just kidding. But yeah, it’s this is really amazing. The article goes on to say that Uber is accelerating its plan to replace its 1 million. Wow, that’s insane. Talk about talk about job creation. And then as Joseph Schumpeter, the economist talked about creative destruction First of all, the creation of 1 million jobs. That’s that’s what Uber is created. That’s, that’s incredible. And then, you know, we’re not even talking about Lyft and the other ride sharing companies LY ft, by the way, which is great. I love Lyft I absolutely love Lyft and I think the drivers like Lyft better, but less we get on a tangent on customers. Yeah, and customer Oh, you do like it better to write.

Michelle 11:22
And I’ve heard from my millennial students, they like it better.

Jason Hartman 11:25
Yeah. Lyft is kind of a friendlier company. I think, you know, it’s just a different culture. So I tried to take Lyft whenever I can, because as much as I love Uber and the innovation, I want Uber to have a competitor. So the market has competition. And Uber is obviously much, much bigger than Lyft. So that’s important. But you know, they’re they’re accelerating. It’s accelerating. It’s planned to replace 1 million Uber human drivers with robots as quickly as possible. Uber chief executive, Travis Callen ik I think that’s how you say that said it. It said in a Blog Post Thursday, he also announced a partnership with Volvo to work on driverless car development and the acquisition of auto that’s Oto a driverless truck technology company. I was just reading an article about them the other day. What they do is they retrofit big trucks, like semi trucks, big giant trucks, and make them driverless or self driving. And they said, they are going to be close to the point pretty quickly, where the truck I’ll say in quotes driver can be sleeping in the cab, just taking a nap as the truck a semi truck drives itself. And they said there’s never been any mishaps with their system. So it really is obviously very amazing. It’s why I purchased a Tesla last December, there has been one fatal Tesla accident that their technology I believe was at fault for and that’s that’s when a tractor trailer pulled in front of the car and car didn’t recognize it because the the for the three or four feet below the trailer was open. But it you know, the sensor didn’t sense that hey, you know there’s the whole car’s got to clear the space here, obviously. And the driver was just I’m sure decapitated. It’s pretty terrible, but he was watching a Harry Potter movie. So he probably shouldn’t have been doing that either. But yeah, while he was driving, so, so why are we talking about this, folks because it has a huge impact on real estate. As I’ve said before, the three primary rules of real estate have always been always throughout history. Back to the cave days when we were living in caves have always been location, location, location, and driverless technology, autonomous vehicles make location less meaningful than it’s ever been in human history. And there’s another huge factor obviously, because we just talked about 1 million Uber drivers being replaced by robots. There is the whole question of employment or unemployment, and what AI, robotic technology, all of these incredible technologies that make it an amazing time to be alive. What do they mean for jobs? Will your tenants have jobs? I just did an interview for a new podcast that I was actually hired to host called for capitalism calm. It’s my friend Ryan Moran’s kind of passion project to save capitalism for Generation Y. He’s a generation wire. And he believes that they’re leaning towards socialism. I did a show for them recently. That was about the destruction of capitalism through artificial intelligence. And I you know, I don’t know how this is all gonna play out. It’s it’s pretty weird but a huge industry globally. Is transportation, as so many of our listeners have pointed out? If we’re going to have rental properties, our tenants probably need to have jobs. Well, you know, if you’re renting to section eight tenants, a lot of them don’t have jobs. They’re just on, quote, disability, unquote. It’s amazing how many young people are disabled nowadays because the government pays them to be disabled. But you know, that’s what gets rewarded gets repeated. Right?

Michelle 15:23

Jason Hartman 15:27
Have you noticed I’m doing all the talking here?

Michelle 15:29
Yes, but you you’re really good at it. Jason.

Jason Hartman 15:33
Sorry, Michelle. Here, I asked you to come on the show with me and then I don’t shut up. Hmm.

Michelle 15:40
I would say I would say we’re more than leaning towards socialism,

Jason Hartman 15:45
or galloping Gordon.

Michelle 15:46
Yeah, with full speed ahead.

Jason Hartman 15:48
As Howard gruff says we’re galloping toward it. And I love what you said to me when we first met. You know, of course, you’re a podcast listener to the podcast and a client of ours. And then you’ve gotten involved with our real estate. Tools company, and you’re doing some great work with real estate tools. And that’s why you’re teaching part of the course coming up in Phoenix in September. But the greatest line ever was what you said to me. Do you remember? Do you know what I’m going to say, Michelle, about that?

Michelle 16:15
I do. It’s lonely being a libertarian in San Francisco.

Jason Hartman 16:23
It really is. It’s lonely being a libertarian in San Francisco. How many of them are there? Is your husband a libertarian?

Michelle 16:32
Yes. Okay.

Jason Hartman 16:33
So there’s two at least

Michelle 16:34
there’s two that I know of. Yeah.

Michelle 16:37
have met in the Bay Area. I know one other. Actually. Actually. Well, I, I do actually belong to a very tiny book club. There’s four of us in there for ladies who are all objectivists.

Jason Hartman 16:52
So wine Rams? Yes. So so we get together and we talk about books and novels and politics and blah, blah. So there’s at least five that I know of and you probably contemplate the question the somewhat rhetorical question. Who is john Galt? Your club, right? Yeah, where is he? Where? Yeah, that question nowadays is where is john Galt? We certainly need some john Gold’s in the world, don’t we? But very interesting stuff. Tell us about the event coming up in tell us some of the stuff you’re going to be covering. You have See, you actually know how to educate people. Unlike me who just rambles on and on. You have some great ideas for how to present this information. I love some of the stuff we talked about a few days ago when I was in Jackson Hole, Jackson Hole, Wyoming, share some of that with listeners.

Michelle 17:45
Well, I’m going to be doing two different presentations. The first one will be on our iOS apps. The most relevant one to your listeners is probably the evaluator app. And what we’re going to do is we’re going to take an actual proform that you might get from any provider, maybe if you’re out shopping on your own, and you get a pro forma, and it tells you certain information. But a lot of times it doesn’t tell you the whole story. It doesn’t answer every question that you might have. And so origin map,

Jason Hartman 18:16
left something out. Yeah, imagine Can you believe it?

Michelle 18:19
So, so we’ll go through the exercise of actually plugging in the numbers and filling in those gaps. And along the way, just explaining, you know, why certain things are important to know and what types of things you can be thinking about and evaluating as, as an investor. And then we can also, you know, take a look at that, and also, some of the variables, you know, we can play around with them and do you know, conservative or more optimistic scenarios so that you can ask yourself, you know, if even if it’s under, you know, sort of a worst case scenario, is this still a good deal for me? And if the answer is yes, Then why wouldn’t you go for it?

Jason Hartman 19:02
Absolutely. That’s great. You know, Michelle, when I got into this business back in 2004, and what I mean is not the real estate business, of course, I was in back in that in like, I don’t know, 1911 or something. It’s a long time ago, but into the nationwide investing business. Two of the decisions that I think I was very fortunate to, to make and make good decisions on this right away. Or number one, I knew who my customer was, it was the investor, not the provider of the property is not the seller. And number two standardizing data data standardization is a critical critical thing as an investor because as I was shopping around trying to do this myself, and I’m basically I got into this business and created these, these companies that that do this to become my own customer because it was so difficult to buy properties nationwide, the the the level of absolute incompetence out there was mind boggling. And the kind of junk that you would get from these different sellers of property in all of these different formats. It’s like you had to be a detective every time to just analyze a property to underwrite a deal. And the the amount of questions back and forth in the emails back and forth and the the detective work, it was beyond the beyond. I just couldn’t believe it. And so that back in 2004, that’s really one of the first things I did data standardization. So you standardize your data. And you’re a lot less likely to make mistakes when you’re choosing a property. And so you had this great idea, which is to take some different performance from some different companies out there, and then put them into our software and standardized them and see if they even have the complete info there for you to standardize in the first place. Right, right.

Michelle 21:05
Well, yeah, a lot of them they leave out maintenance or they leave out vacancy. And they just have a little note at the bottom saying, Oh, you should take that into account as well.

Jason Hartman 21:16
Right, you might want to think about those extra cost. That changed the whole dynamics of the bill. And maybe it’s not as good as it looks. Exactly.

Michelle 21:23

Jason Hartman 21:24
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Okay, good. Good stuff. What else are you going to be talking about?

Michelle 21:29
Well, we other presentation for me is on the online software, which is property tracker. And that software is designed for really managing your portfolio once you’ve purchased it. You can also evaluate the purchase beforehand through that software, but then afterwards, it helps you to manage them on an ongoing basis. And so we get a lot of questions just around you know, how do I input all the information? How do I, you know, input the data as it’s coming in, you know, on a monthly basis. This. So we’re just gonna walk participants through that step by step and show them how to do it.

Jason Hartman 22:08
Now, what about home flippers? We’re not really into flipping as a philosophy. We’re into the buy and hold stuff. Are we going to talk about our other app? property flipper?

Michelle 22:18
If we do have time?

Jason Hartman 22:20
Yeah. A fixer. So he changed the name of it. Yeah, right, right. Yep.

Michelle 22:24
Yeah. If there’s time, sure, we can definitely take a look at that app as well. Yeah,

Jason Hartman 22:28
so we’ve got a little app that makes it really easy. And I know we’re not talking to most of our audience here. But there are a few of you out there who are into the flipping thing. We’ve got a little app for your iOS device, iPad, or iPhone, that helps you analyze flips really quickly, and see if they make sense and see how much money you might make on that deal. So we can do a little short demo on that one, hopefully, too. So good stuff. And then we’re going to have our providers there from three or four of our markets, that we’ll be talking about the different properties they have. And and Michelle, you had a good idea for that to take some of those properties and kind of analyze them in some different ways, right? Yes. Well, we thought we could take some of the properties that they’re going to have for sale and put that into property tracker and take a look at it. Try different scenarios. And, and see if it’s see if it’s a deal. be critical of them, right. be critical of them. Yeah, yeah, that’s great. It’s so nice to have the freedom of not being attached to any one property or any one market to be able to be property agnostic and area agnostic, because we have this variety of inventory that people can buy. So it doesn’t have to be in any specific market or it doesn’t have to be any specific local market specialist or type of property or anything like that, right?

Michelle 23:49
Yes. Can I tell you Jason, one of the things that I really appreciate about you and your company, is actually the level of transparency that you have that you can go on your website and you can really see the inventory that your company is has gathered. But you’re very honest that it’s not perfect. It’s just better than anything else. So as the investor, you know, you’re not just being sold this really rosy picture, you know that you have to do your due diligence, you have to do your own evaluation.

Michelle 24:24
And I just really appreciate that.

Jason Hartman 24:26
Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. And no, you can’t tell anybody that. You just did. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Michelle, and thank you. You know, we’re just here. Our big goal is help people move their money away from the modern version of organized crime known as Wall Street, they, the modern mafia, that that does a great job separating people from their money. We want to help people become direct investors so they can be in control. Since my head is getting really fat right now and I can barely fit through the door, can I read two nice testimonials we got this week. Of course, real quick. These were on iTunes and they were reviews for the podcast and I, I so much appreciate any of you listening, please go write a review for the podcast. We really appreciate that. We try to read them on the air as much as we can. But there were two nice ones this week. One from Mark Cropper. Thank you, Mark. Appreciate that. It says great insights. It’s a five star review from a man who practices everything he preaches. Well, just so you know, that’s not really true, but thank you. I don’t practice everything I breach. Sometimes my my own worst enemy. But thank you for saying that from the man who practices everything he preaches. Very interesting and informative talk about real estate investing and beyond keep producing these helpful podcast Jason, they are valuable. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. And then the next one was great straightforward advice, information and knowledge. This one. It’s not they don’t really say the name. So I don’t I think it’s Evan. But it might be a typo there. I’m not exactly sure. But it’s a five star review. And it says Jason has grown and evolved over the years. And his podcast mirrors this. Jason, I love your podcast. If you want to learn about real estate, politics and life, listen to this podcast. Jason is a knowledgeable fellow, a funny dude. And if you can get beyond his rants, which I particularly get a positive kick out of, then you have to listen to this podcast. Thanks again, Jason. So thank you for that. I appreciate it. We will keep churning them out until we get to Episode 30 562. That’s when we’re gonna quit. I think 3562 Do you think that’s a good number to quit on Michelle? No. Okay. All right. All right. Hey, um, in other news here real quickly, just I want to actually give some credit. Yes. redhead I want to commend and pat on the back. Our president, Mr. Obama, who I don’t usually give any credit to. But I think he’s done like four good things in office. And this is one of them. And it is. And this is a Business Insider article, but I saw it in a bunch of places. And the media says, the debate over private prisons is masking the real problems with America’s prison industry. So you can debate that all you want. But the Obama administration has said that they are going to move away from privatized prisons, in terms of the federal government, and I hope states will follow because as much as I love capitalism, I don’t think capitalism works in areas where you incentivize people to take away people’s freedom or to kill them and what I mean by killing them I mean, the war machine, the military animal Real complex. These are areas where capitalism, it doesn’t work so well. Don’t at least that’s my opinion. You know, when I first heard of privatized prisons in the 90s, I thought they were good idea. I thought, yeah, let’s outsource this to private industry, they will do a much better job than the government, you know, they’ll be more efficient, it’ll be less expensive. But unfortunately, as that great book I’ve talked about in the past, the greatest management principle in the world, probably written back in the 80s, by Michael lebeau, or Michael above. And the the thesis of the book is what gets rewarded gets repeated, and the prison population has skyrocketed and laws have become more draconian, they become stricter, because there’s this whole industry that is incentivized by finding reasons for people to break the law so they can be imprisoned. There’s a whole nother industry, the military industrial complex that finds reasons to go to war, because it’s very profitable. And that’s the central bankers, of course, are in on that deal. They have been for a long time. So yeah, I don’t want to see prisons privatized. I want to let that one go back to the government. Am I crazy? Michelle, what do you think?

Michelle 29:13
No, I don’t think so. I mean, even as a libertarian, we recognize that there are certain areas where we do need government. It’s not a no government philosophy. It’s just limited. But there are certain functions that are the primary responsibility of government. And I would definitely say, you know, law enforcement and incarceration would be some of those things.

Jason Hartman 29:34
Yeah, yeah. And like Iran says the government has to maintain the monopoly on the ability to inflict violence, because occasionally you need to, and that needs to be only the government that does that. And in a way privatized prisons are inflicting in a sense of violence. You know, the government needs to maintain the court system. And these are things that even Iran says, you know, what? Government needs to do. So I agree. And, you know, infrastructure in general needs to be the government’s responsibility. But please get the hell out of everything else in our lives.

Michelle 30:12
That would be great. I mean, talking about the prison population exploding, you really have to talk about our drug laws. And I know that’s a tangent and a whole can of worms, but it’s just really a national travesty, I think with

Jason Hartman 30:24
what’s going on. It is it really is, you know, drug addiction needs to be treated as a social and a medical problem if he asked me, yeah, we got to stop incarcerating people for that. So you know, I’m gonna give Obama some credit. He’s hardened a lot of nonviolent drug offenders. Now, I haven’t looked at individual cases. I hope I’m not sorry for saying this. This move by the DOJ away from privatized prisons, I think is a good one. And, you know, it’s we’ll put it up there with you know, the five good things Obama’s done in eight years. I’m not exactly a fan in case you haven’t noticed, but I’ll give him credit where it’s due. I’ll never forgive him for Obamacare for disaster that’s already falling apart. So it’s just epic disaster. Yeah. Yeah, we can talk about that on another show. But I know we got to wrap it up. So Michelle, thank you for joining me.

Michelle 31:16
Know. Thanks for having me. Yeah,

Jason Hartman 31:17
a couple another quick announcement, folks. We’ve got a great event coming up just in about, I guess what is that about 10 days away in Seattle, our venture Alliance weekend. That’s on Labor Day weekend. And if you’d like to join us for that, check out venture Alliance mastermind calm for the software and buying event, which is the next the following weekend, September 10, and 11th. Go to Jason Hartman calm, click on the events section and join us for that. There’s still the second tier of early bird pricing for that event. And I know some of you missed out on the first early bird tier and you were kind of bummed about that, but the room is filling up. You got to register ASAP Jason slash events. And we look forward to seeing you there. Michelle, thanks again for joining me.

Announcer 32:06
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