Jason Hartman hosts his mom, Joyce, and a client, Drew, to discuss their respective property management approach. Drew is in the process of going towards self-management but currently uses property managers. Joyce is an advocate of self-management and answers some of Drew’s questions, including those about tenant relationships, longer tenant retention, rent collections, and many other aspects of management.
This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman media.com.
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it on now. here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.
Jason Hartman 1:04
Welcome to the creating wealth show. This is your host Jason Hartman episode number 952 952. Today we have part two, with my mother and our client drew Baker. They’re actually both clients. My mom is actually a client. Just so you know, she is the extreme do it yourselfer. And drew has, I believe 10 properties Now in addition to his own home with property managers, I take a middle ground on this, as you know, I think the hybrid approach is the best approach. I do want to mention two areas of potential danger and pitfalls. And this is if I haven’t pointed out enough in this, I do think a hybrid approach is a good idea for many people, not all people. You’ve got to have some experience and you can get some experience by beginning your investment career having property managers and learning from them what they do well what they do poorly etc. Just a couple of pitfalls. Areas number one, occasionally, you will have difficulty with insurance for self managed properties, insurance companies, you know, they feel the kind of safe one size fits all benefit or situation is to just have a professional property manager. And sometimes they require that to get a certain rate. So your rates might vary, and companies might vary based on whether or not you’re self managing. That’s one thing I don’t know if I pointed out in this interview, I do want to point that out. So check that carefully. You know, make sure that you are always when you have an insurance policy, you are filling out applications correctly telling your insurance broker the correct things and you’re not misleading them in any way. Okay, so that’s obvious, goes without saying should go without saying at least. And then the other thing is, I’m the most tender and I guess risky part of this is the turn. I believe it’s the term Over, I think collecting rent on a monthly basis, it’s actually quite easy. A lot is made that it’s a big deal. I’ve never found it to be any big deal. And all the times I’ve self managed over the years, I find that to be the really the easy part, the tenant turn is the more difficult part. And that’s where you’ve got to pay attention. You’ve got to make sure you hire a property manager on an all ecard basis, or a real estate agent on an all a carte basis. And you’ve got to really hold them accountable and make sure they’re doing the things. They meet with the tenant who’s departing. They check the property, they send you photos, they do the final walkthrough as they move out. You make sure the utilities are on in between. If it’s a cold climate, and you may need consider winterizing the house pay attention to that. That’s another area where you know you could have a pipe break or something like that look at I know, we’re talking about all these complexities and difficulties. But look, income property is the most essential Quickly proven asset class in the entire world, you got to know what you’re doing a little bit, you got to pay attention, you know, my philosophy, there’s no such thing as a passive investment. So, you know, just learn a few things, pay attention to a few things and you’ll be fine. Okay? It’s the most historically proven asset class in the world. It’s a multi dimensional asset class, where you earn return in many ways, versus the Wall Street, the modern version of organized crime on Wall Street, where they’re skimming all the profits off the top, and all of the other pooled money investments out there, income property, the most historically proven asset class in the entire world. So that said, note the things that I’m mentioning, so be careful on the turn. Ideally, you’re hiring a property manager to do all a cart, lease up and walk throughs in and out and things like that between tenants. But the best thing is to keep your tenants for a long time. And when you self manage a lot of times, you can do that more effectively than you can with a property manager. And we’ve talked about that over the years. If you’re a member of our j h, you can find out about that at Jason hartman.com. And if you’re a member of that, we have a couple of conference calls where we go in, in depth on self management. And we’ve talked about this many times over many years. There are prior podcast on it as well. So here we are with another one. Today is part two. So we will dive into that. By the way, next week, we’ve got some exciting shows coming up for you also flashback Friday tomorrow. But next week, we’re going to talk about slicing pie, as it applies to real estate investors, how you can equity share and share profits in income property investments with partners and do it very effectively using this wonderful methodology called slicing pie. We had the founder of the slicing pie methodology speak at our venture lions mastermind event in Chicago a few months back, it was quite interesting. So we’re going to talk about it as it applies to income probably I think you’ll like that that’s coming up next week, as well as a bunch of other great stuff. And remember, for the Ice Hotel trip, we got a couple more spots left. Venture Alliance and non venture Alliance members are eligible for this trip. The information on that is at Jason Hartman, ice hotel.com. I know it’s a long domain name. Jason Hartman, ice hotel.com that’s the world famous Ice Hotel in Sweden. This is a bucket list once in a lifetime trip. So consider joining us check it out. Jason Hartman Ice Hotel calm. We’ve also got our San Jose Jason Hartman University event ja to live in San Jose on March 3, check that out at Jason Hartman calm and let’s go to part two of hybrid property management. Here we go. So one more about how you deal with tenants on an ongoing basis. I mean, rent collection problems, repair problems. Those are the things people are concerned about. What else do you want to share?
Well, I have some people, which, again, if it’s Los Angeles, I get all of these vendors from the apartment Owners Association. They just have hundreds of vendors. And they know you’re not dealing with Miss little housewife who stays home teaches and bakes cookies. They know that because you’re part of the apartment Owners Association, that you are going to get a better price. And if you don’t get a better price, you simply turn around and call the apartment Owners Association and tell them about it. So there’s painters, there’s electricians or plumbers, there’s everything. And that is very, very helpful to me for the properties that are in Southern California. Otherwise, you simply have to go online and I also get tell them phone books, which is kind of like ancient things that aren’t online, you always can look in the Yellow Pages and find people, again, you just make those 10 phone calls, and you get a good price. It’s a lot cheaper to help a lot of people come to you and give you bids, rather than you taking three bids and trying to get a decent price.
Jason Hartman 8:26
Yeah, right. So you you get a lot of phone calls.
Jason Hartman 8:30
Yeah, you get a lot of people out to that property. Now, here’s another self, man. Two things I want to say. Number one is, you know, we obviously don’t recommend investing in overpriced Southern California. But these are properties that you bought, you know, decades ago. So you still own them. And I haven’t convinced you to sell them on 1031 exchanges yet and buy 20 more properties. So that’s one thing. We’ve talked about that on other shows, so we won’t go into it here. But the other part that’s interesting is that the tenant when it’s occupied, you’re referring To the tenant turnover in between tenants and the make ready. But when the property is occupied, the tenant does the work for you. It’s amazing to me, like I have literally had tenants in my self managed properties, call me and say, Hey, the air conditioning isn’t cooling. It’s not coming out cold anymore. And I already called, and I got a couple of bids on fixing it. And I said, well just email them to me. And I’m like, they’re doing my work. For me. It’s incredible. They’re at the property. I mean, the nice thing about not living near your properties is you can’t go over and meet anybody. So the tenant or the real estate agent or the property manager hired for all carte services during the tenant turn, or even not. We’ll help you do that. One of the things I’ve done effectively and I know my mom has is I’ve used local service providers like realtors and property many managers to just do things for free. Because remember, you’re a potential customer for them. They want your business, they’ll go over and take a look at your property. Mom, I remember, I was with you one time, when you were on the phone with a realtor who was going to look at your property for you and tell you if the tenant had moved, like you didn’t hear from the tenant, you didn’t get the rent. And so you asked this realtor to go over there and the realtor saw the tenant and handed her cell phone to your tenant. They were like in the driveway or something of you know, talk about that a little bit. They idea of getting people to help you out local people.
Yeah, I can’t remember that too much. But I do remember taking
Jason Hartman 10:45
it was the best
Bond. Yeah, but, you know, lots of times, I will ask a realtor, if I am having I haven’t had problems lately, for quite a long while as a matter of fact, but sometimes when you’re doing an eviction You have to know if that tenant has left or not, because you don’t want to travel there, you know, until, and so I’ll just ask the realtor to go by and take a look and see if the tenant is still living there or not. And of course, that realtors quite happy to do so, because she thinks she’ll get a listing to sell the house, or at least she’ll get a listing to rent out for you.
Jason Hartman 11:23
Right, right. And so there’s a whole army of people out there that are more than willing to help you and provide services to you some for a fee and some for free just as a goodwill gesture to try and get business. Okay, so talk to us about evictions a little bit when a tenant goes bad. I want you to talk about retaining tenants because you have your tenant stay a long time in your properties mom, and then that in the best thing is to retain them of course, and to not have a lot of turnover. But the second thing is to handle evictions. Well, if they turn out to be deadbeats, talk to us a little bit about that if you wouldn’t how you handle those things.
Okay, well, if the rent is not there, first, I have a process server for $35. Do a three day notice to pay rent or quit. And you don’t have to wait the three days. If you have one of those terrible clauses it you know, not late until five days, the first day that the rent is not there in your bank account, you email that form or fax that form to the process server and have that process or service. Okay, that makes your tenant know that you serious on top of everything. And once they get that legal notice that attitude changes almost magically. Good. Yes, you don’t get that rent, within three days. Just start to eviction, because you know what, a bad tenant will only get worse and worse and worse. So it’s imperative that you get Get out as soon as possible.
Jason Hartman 13:02
The concept being you know, you’ve all heard it with, like, if you have children or pets, if you give an inch they take a yard. Right. So, yeah,
I have a question. I have a question. You know, I think that that might work on paper. I don’t know how that works in practicality. You know, if somebody I know everybody the dog ate their homework, but, you know, sometimes things in life happened where somebody lost their job, and they need a little bit of flexibility. I have maintained a new philosophy that zero tolerance, it’s an impersonal thing, I’m gonna have to just go through I need to do what makes sense for me. And it’s not constantly making exceptions. But Joyce, is there any flexibility because I think when you have a more direct line of communication with tenants, and you’re being you know, friendly and trying to make them happy as a tenant, since they’re your you know, they are your customer. You’re right, yeah, I mean You can’t just kick them to the curb in every situation. But I don’t know, if you have any flexibility or what how your approaches because my issue with the property man doing it self management style is that if you’re now having a relationship with the tenant, is it awkward at all to raise the rents on them? Because that now feels like you have this relationship that now you’re sort of, yeah, we get it good.
Jason Hartman 14:26
We can through the, you know, how does it feel? So, I’m not maybe that’s like 10 questions in one, but give me your thoughts. Let me tee that up a little bit. It’s counterintuitive, true. It’s the opposite. A lot of times, because the tenant has the pressure of pleasing you, of maintaining a relationship with you when it’s some third party property management company, man, they’re just taking all they can get. They’re gonna ask for everything and object everything when they have to maintain that relationship with you personally. They want to be careful they want To maintain a good relationship with our landlord. Go ahead, mom.
Okay, Drew, there are certainly cases, and especially if that tenant has been there for a long time, that you are certainly going to cooperate with that tenant. What I’m talking about if that this was a new tenant, and if that rent isn’t there, like within, say, the first six months that they’re in your house, okay? You send that three day notice to pay rent or quit via Process Server immediately. And pretty soon, you’re going to train that tenant to have that rent their honor before the first day of the month. Okay? That’s really important with a brand new tenant. But when a tenant has been living in your house for six years, for two years in things do happen. Okay. So definitely you’re going to give some consideration to that tenant. I’m just talking about that you get rid of your property manager. All sudden, the tenant doesn’t pay his rent. Right? So the first six months are really critical.
Jason Hartman 16:09
So it’s the probationary period deal with that tenant. Yeah, you set the tone. Yeah, that’s training them up to your standards. You got to set the tone.
Yeah. What I do like about kind of the approach is that you’re sort of training your tenant because I think the issue that I have with the property manager is, even though Jason It sounds like you have a great property manager in Florida, I find it very hard to teach an old dog new tricks these property manager I know and pinion they have their box, and if it doesn’t fit in it, they just are like,
Jason Hartman 16:42
Both of your point I think attendance is much more flexible than a property manager.
Jason Hartman 16:49
I agree. And the property manager will lie to you or shade the truth, at least sometimes, and act like it’s the tenant demanding something when it’s really useful. them, because you’re you don’t have a direct line of communication. The other thing I wanted to say a few minutes ago about that concept is that when you make it the responsibility of your tenants to deposit the money in your bank account, you got to have a national bank account, obviously, you know, with a big national bank. But there’s other ways they can do it cozy. As you know, there are other options too, when you make it their responsibility to do that every month, you are on top of it, you are attached to it very directly. And you know, the first is the first, a property manager will, you know, send you the rent on the 20th after the check clears and they process the payment, and sometimes the property managers late and one property manager does one thing and another does another thing. And it just gets all confusing. The way my mom does it, it’s clear. The first is the first there’s 12 times a year that you’re going to look online and look at your account, make sure those deposits are there. And that’s the end of the discussion. It’s just really clear.
Okay, so Look at three or four of my tenants now regularly deposit the 20th or, you know, any time before the for right now.
Yeah, it is funny because I was really kind of happy with one of the property managers because they promptly deposited on the first and what I realized was they were depositing
Jason Hartman 18:21
the prior month. Yeah, right. Exactly. I know.
Yeah. Yeah. So I there is there is something to be said about that. Now Joyce, how do you handle you know, raising the rent when you know, you’ve now had kind of a personable experience with the renter and do you build that expectation and early or how does that work? Because you know, one of the properties i have i’ve had a tenant, they’ve been great for five years never complained. And I was a little leery about raising the rent because I hadn’t done so he was never ready. I roll my mind mentality well, you know if you if you pull comps in the neighborhood, You know, it’s not like rents have gone bananas. And there is argument that you know, I mean, I think we’re at the Masters event meaning masters, which was great. I think one of the property managers was talking about, you know, the reasons why tenants leave. And one of them is for, you know, they find something cheaper now, not saying you should never raise the rent in five years, that was a mistake on my part because I wasn’t a hawk. But you know, I’m not sure on your end as far as self managing, and in general, you know, how do you set up that allocation? And what if you What if you haven’t raised the rent, let’s say in a five year period or a few years, like, Is it too late to do that? Tell me what you think.
There’s a good chance you might lose that senate if you haven’t raised the rent in five years, when finally you decide to do that, because again, you have to train your tenants to your way of doing business like the guy to have the rent there. before. First day of the month, and then look, every year your taxes get raised every year your insurance costs more money. And you know what? You’re always going to have to spend some money on a hot water heater, a new refrigerator, a toilet, or whatever. Okay, so you have to have some money paid into that. You have to give him a raise What’s in here? There’s just no question. But the way I do it, is I go on to Zillow and Trulia. And I look and see what the rentals are for the area. And if you can’t decide yourself, call a local real estate agent and ask or call two or three of them. So you get a really good idea as to what the price should be. Now your property manager doesn’t ever want to raise the rent, because they don’t want to have to go to the hassle of finding a new candidate.
Jason Hartman 20:55
That’s interesting. And we’ve had we’ve had the debate about that before as to whether Not, that is the motivation that you just outlined with a lower rent, right? Or the motivation is to raise the rent too high so that the tenant leaves so they can charge you a lease up fee again. And I don’t know what’s true, nobody really does, because nobody knows what’s in anybody else’s head. But I’ll tell you something. When you self manage, you remove any of those kind of conflicts of interest. It’s, you’re going direct. Go ahead, Drew.
I want to throw a real life scenario that happened with me, and I think it’s kind of a to the point of the conversation. I had a property and the tenant was unhappy with the management company, I think over late fees, or they weren’t getting what they wanted. So somehow, they managed to find my information. I still don’t know how they did. I asked them and I didn’t get a clear answer, maybe through the county recorders office. They can they can
Jason Hartman 21:51
find it. It’s big data man. They found you can find anything.
They called me. Yeah, they called me and said, Hey, we’re unhappy. We’ve had this issue and property managers and getting back to us when they’re charging me a late fee. What do I do Bubba? So I kind of became this like party now added to the mix. So one day it was Thanksgiving. Okay. And it was the night of Thanksgiving. The ceiling fan had fallen off the roof when it was off the ceiling. All the drywall, all the insulation, everything had just dumped in their master bedroom. Wow. Jason is a huge
Jason Hartman 22:31
I never heard of something like that. Yeah, go ahead.
Wow. Yeah, well, apparently the builder or the person doing the rehab did not use the correct drywall screws or something. And there was some sort of issue in that regard. That was not meant, you know, was obviously impossible to know.
Jason Hartman 22:48
So what’s the question? What’s the question?
Yeah, so the question is, it’s Thanksgiving. This has fallen onto the tenants master bedroom, it broke their TV and you know, They said their their wife was afraid and all this stuff and I’m sitting here having to deal with this, you know, looking at the Thanksgiving dinner going, I don’t even know what to do. The question is, is like, now when I talked to the property management company, they had, you know, hey, we’ll get somebody out there, we’ll fix it. The tenant is like, hey, how much are they charging you? I can have my uncle do this. And oh, who’s gonna fix my TV? And it just became this real weird situation where they wanted Well, that’s that’s
Jason Hartman 23:31
insurance. The TV is insurance. That’s an insurance claim for the TV at least if not the ceiling fan to but the TV is definitely an insurance, you know, that’s their insurance first and your second I can answer that one for you. Okay,
okay. Okay. That was taken care of, but I guess that so they want to have their uncle do the job and they’re trying to bargain with you. And, you know, when you have a property management or hiring someone real that’s not part of the that doesn’t fit in the box. So it’s The tenant is trying to kind of cut corners. And you know, I don’t know how to deal with that. How do you do just tell the truth?
The first thing, I think, because you, you have that property management company, that has got to be their responsibility for fixing it. I wouldn’t deal with a tenant because you don’t know the debit from Adam. You have no clue if they’re responsible people. If the guy is a real good, Handy guy, you have no clue, because you’ve never met them and you’ve had no relationship with them. So you’ve got to let that property management company handle that problem. And then I would get rid of that property management company.
Yeah, well, my main question, Well, my my, my hypothetical was more like, this is your home. This happens to you. You don’t know their work and they’re trying to bargain with you and my uncle can do the work for cheaper than this other person. I had to do the bid. You know,
the question is it I don’t know. No, that cannot. And so I can’t try. You can’t do that.
Jason Hartman 25:05
Yeah. Because you may have a bigger mess on your hands. That’s another reason for self management. So there you go. Because then you’ll know the tenant, you’ll know who you’re dealing with. I mean, my aunt Joan, who was, of course, another speaker at meet the Masters, you know, she’s got, I think, now like 80 properties or so, and has always self managed everything. But you know, admittedly, what my mom is doing and what am Joan is doing is kind of old school. But I think there’s a lot to be said for it. I think, folks, we got to wrap up. We’ve been talking for a long time here. But the point is, I really believe that the hybrid approach is the thing to do. You have someone help you a property manager or a real estate agent, all a CART services, just to do the lease up. Here’s what they do. Again, let me just say this, okay, because we’ve gone into a lot of this that you don’t need to do while you’re listening. They they handle meeting the old tenant, they do. walkthrough of the property, they send you a bunch of photos, they help you determine what to give back and what to keep from the old tenant security deposit, then if any rent ready stuff needs to be done, and hopefully it doesn’t. But if it needs to be done, they line up the repair people, the painter or the whatever, and they have them get the house ready. And then they do the marketing for the new tenant, they screen them, and they’re responsible for all of this. And then they lease it up and they transfer the keys over. And they By the way, they also give you pictures of the house before it’s delivered to the new tenant. So that you have pictures to see that everything was now fixed, right? And then the new tenant when the next rent is due on the first of that following month, they pay you directly. This is the best system if you asked me, okay, and you know, I don’t do it with all of my properties. I do it with some, but oddly, these tenants they just don’t bug you like everybody thinks. One thing. I do want to close with We didn’t get to the tenant retention question, although drew asked a little bit about increasing rent and Mom, you said that you train people to expect rent increases, which I think is a very good policy, even if it’s a small rent increase, get them in the habit of knowing every year there’s a rent increase. Okay. But the longest tenant and we’ve talked about this on the show before you’ve ever had one of your properties, is the guy that’s been there since 1989. He got a bought the house by now, his mortgage would be paid off, right. But you’ve had some other tenants that stay a long time. What is your average tenancy before you do a turnover and what are some of your other like long tenants Mom, how long have they stayed?
I think 5 6 7 years. Mm hmm. Yeah, it’s pretty typical. There’s an area I believe that valley where the lower class of the tenants and during the 2008 910 11 years, I had turnover because tenants lost their jobs.
Jason Hartman 28:00
So they weren’t they were moving around.
Okay, do you think that this style that you have? Does it change at all? Or do you have? Would you have a different approach? If it were in a class neighborhood versus a C class neighborhood? Or Jason, do you recommend? Do you think that you might have better success in a more affluent areas than you would dealing with people that are maybe a little bit more of a lower economic status? When you think about that? affluence? misnomer?
Jason Hartman 28:27
I mean, you know, a and b properties are generally the easiest to manage C and D properties are harder. But go ahead, Mom, what’s your answer?
I think one of the things that you learn when you do the lease up if if the person is handy, or what kind of work he does, and sometimes that counts for a lot or just, I have a tenant in Northport and a lot of things went wrong with that house because it was a really cheap builder. And she It was very intelligent woman and she’d get estimates or she Have her ex husband do the work. And because she was smart, and she was good, I trusted her with a lot of things. And she saved me money. But that only comes with knowing that tenant,
Jason Hartman 29:11
amazingly, the tenant will do a lot of this work for you. And I don’t mean that they’re necessarily swinging the hammer, okay, but sometimes they are, I mean, that they will meet the repair people, they will screen them, they will get some quotes for you. They will save you a lot of time. I mean, I’ve had tenants call around and find the best vendor for me, I’ll end up paying for the thing, but they’ll say hey, I think I found you the best deal on this repair or that repair and this I can do myself, but you know, they’re trying to get brownie points with you. They’re trying to get like extra credit sometimes. And you know, make you know, they’re a great tenant, and you know, they want to help you out. They got to maintain that relationship. When you have the property manager in the middle. It’s not that way. It’s different. So look, let’s wrap it up. We Going on very long. This is
why I have I have my last question. Really important. I want to know Jason, would you want your mom to be your your landlord? No. Okay, Joyce Joyce, would you want? Would you want Jason to be your tenant?
Well, I wouldn’t mind if I if I didn’t know him this my son.
I had to ask. Sorry.
Jason Hartman 30:24
Oh, that’s fun.
He could afford my rent rate. Yeah.
Jason Hartman 30:31
Oh, that’s funny. That’s a funny question. But the point is, look, if you have a great property manager, they can be worth their weight in gold, a great property manager is great, but a mediocre or a lousy property manager, you know, you might want to consider the self management. I’m not saying it’s for everybody. It is for some people. If nothing else, you learn some stuff from this. We’re gonna have to split this into two episodes because this interview is so long. But I just want to thank drew and my mom. Thank you. So much, you guys for sharing some of the stuff.
Yeah, go ahead.
Can I just say something to drew? Sure, you know, Drew, if you have five properties in, say, Indianapolis or something,
Jason Hartman 31:10
you got six there and four in Memphis? Yep.
Okay. You know, you might really consider just totally self managing, because you could go there when I have to re rent a house. If it doesn’t work for one tenant, they always say, Well, do you have anything more in the area? Do you have any more houses? And in Moreno Valley, I’ve got four houses. So if another two houses up for rent, you know, I can show them that house. That becomes a real good point for you. You would know that neighborhood, you’d begin to know all of the good vendors. And you just might want to just
Jason Hartman 31:46
let me let me say something about that. This is a strategy I’ve talked about. See when you make the mistake like I did of over diversifying, you don’t have that if you’re going to buy or you already have, you know 20 properties 30 properties say that’s your your portfolio goal at this point, right? Don’t over diversify. If you can get 10 in each of three cities, you’re gonna have that what I call the pinball effect, like a pinball machine, right? They can bounce off one and go to the other. And, you know, you can start to actually influence comps in the market and rental rates, ultimately, sometimes. So I think that’s a good goal to move toward. And that’s another thing to think about, folks, we got to wrap this up. We’ve been on for an hour and 10 minutes here. So Drew, and my mom, thank you very much for sharing some of this stuff. It’s been just a very casual discussion today. Many of our interviews are much more formal than this, but I really appreciate you sharing this stuff. So thank you and happy investing to all
good luck, Drew.
Jason Hartman 32:53
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