This episode of the Creating Wealth podcast is about a case study with client Vernon Grant. Jason Hartman gives investment guidance on how to handle Vernon’s parents’ properties. Jason looks into both properties, their rent-to-value-ratio (RTV), and their existing debt structures. Jason also talks about the New York market, depreciation offsets, refi-til-ya-die option, and renting.
Announcer 0:00
This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman media.com.
Announcer 0:13
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it on now. here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution. For real estate investors,
Jason Hartman 1:03
Welcome to the creating wealth show, episode number 809 809. This is Jason Hartman, thank you so much for joining me today as we do a another case study. Yes, we have one of our clients on with us today. And we love it when our clients come on the show and share their experience, the good, the bad, and the ugly, ask questions and get them answered. So if you would like to be on the show, just reach out to us and let us know. If you’re working with one of our investment counselors. Now you can just reach out through them. Or you can just reach out through Jason hartman.com. And we’d love to put you on the show and answer your questions, hear your experience, etc. Of course, you can always reach me on voxer as well. My voxer name is Jay Hart 88 Jay Hart 88. If you just have a quick question there, which we may play on the show, we don’t always play those on the show, but sometimes we do sometimes they’re a little hard to organize and Too many of them come in, and I can’t keep track of them all. But I went when applicable, I tried, I gotta get back on that and start playing those on the show. Anyway, yeah, let’s get to our guest today and do this little client case study. I hope you enjoy it. And one of the things I want to remind you of, and we, we talked about it here on this interview with our client, is that the ideal thing in terms of properties where you don’t have good rent to value ratios, the ideal thing, if they’re really far off is always to sell them, do a 1031 exchange if necessary. So you have tax deferral, and then buy less expensive properties with better rental value ratios. That would be the first choice. The second choice is to refinance them, because at least if you refinance them, you get control of that equity. you’ve engaged in the practice that I call equity stripping, which is a very good practice. So that your equity is no longer lazy money, it’s not tied up in the property, you can use it, you can do some good with it, and you actually lower your risk. I know this is counterintuitive for many people, and we’ve talked about it many times on the past 808 episodes. Just keep that in mind, selling, doing if necessary at 1031 tax deferred exchange, which by the way, a word of caution here and remember that I am not a tax advisor. I’m not a lawyer, always seek competent and it’s not easy to find competent, by the way, always advice when it comes to this stuff because taxes and legal questions are particularly complicated. And one of the things that people are sometimes surprised by is that they can have a property that they are selling for the same price they bought it but they’ve taken a big tax write off for many years, and that tax write off is the the best tax benefit because Income property is the most tax favored asset class in America. And that is called depreciation. It’s a non cash write off, it’s a phantom write off. It’s a wonderful, wonderful tax benefit. But remember, if you’ve taken that tax benefit for the last five years, and you sell the property for the same price you bought it for, then hey, you gotta pay that back. And that’s called depreciation recapture. So even if you’re, if you think from a very elementary understanding that you’re just breaking even, you’re really not, you’re really making money. And this is the thing with real estate investing because it’s this wonderful multi dimensional asset class, income property, the most historically proven asset class in the world, a multi dimensional asset class where we’re where we earn our profits, we earn our returns from many dimensions. With that in mind, a lot of people, they just, they’re making money, they’re winning the game. And sometimes they think they’re losing, because they don’t know how to keep score. And that’s what we teach you to do is keep score on the show key and know how to keep score. And of course, go to real estate tools.com for some excellent tools that can help you keep score, and help you be a better investor, go to Jason hartman.com. Listen to or really watch that free 27 minute video that we’ve got on how to analyze a real estate investment, that can be very, very helpful in learning how to keep score. And so part of keeping score is knowing that you’ve received this tax benefit for in that example, I just mentioned the last five years. And if you sell the property for the same price you bought it for, hey, you’re gonna have some depreciation recapture potentially right? And so you still might want to do a 10th 31 tax deferred exchange. So that is something very important to keep in mind. Okay, so in either case, we let’s get to our guest interview today. And if you’re out there, you’re one of our clients, we’d love to have you on the show as well just reach out to your investment counselor, or contact us through Jason hartman.com. Or contact me through voxer at Jay Hart 88. And we’d always love to have you on the show. Anyway, here we go with our client case study.
Hey, it’s my pleasure to welcome one of our clients back to the show. Well, first time for this one, but we’ve had many clients on the show over the years. And we always like to share these talks with you as sort of case studies and also have them ask some questions and so forth. And all of those questions apply to many of you listeners as well because many people have the same questions and are thinking along the same Lions about stuff. And I just want to welcome Vernon grant. Vernon How are you?
Vernon Grant 7:05
I’m well thanks and yourself.
Jason Hartman 7:07
Good. Good to have you on the show and you’re coming to us from New York City area. And it’s great to have you and you have really been helping your your parents out with their real estate investing it sounds like and, and doing some of your own. Give us a little background if you would, yes, well, I’m an engineer by trade, but
Vernon Grant 7:29
I went into business for myself in 2001. And I’ve been continuing that until today. And now I have a little bit more time that I can help my parents out with their investing that they started in the 90s I would say and I like a lot of your ideas and I would like to put what they have to good use to because what they have already is growing But I think you can do a lot better based on
Jason Hartman 8:04
your stuff. Yeah. Well, that’s that’s a great topic. When did you discover my podcast?
Vernon Grant 8:09
Actually, I was listening to Ryan Moran’s podcast.
Vernon Grant 8:16
Freedom Fastlane I’m not sure if you remember it.
Jason Hartman 8:18
Yeah. I’ve been on a few of Ryan’s shows. So yeah,
Vernon Grant 8:21
yes. And so it was quite a while ago that I heard about your podcast, but I just was so busy. I didn’t have the time to listen. And within the last, I would say two months I have been so many episodes of it’s so great. You have so much good knowledge. You know, so many people, they will pick and choose information that they wish to share. But it’s not the big picture and you give such a clear, big picture. You tie in so many things to the market. And what if and what if and What you should do in those situations? And you’re you’re quite conservative with how you invest. And so I mean, it just makes so much sense.
Jason Hartman 9:12
Well, I appreciate it. Vernon Thank you. And I’m glad you like the show. So you’ve you’ve been bingeing on the episodes. Any idea how many episodes you listen to?
Vernon Grant 9:21
Oh, man, at least a couple hundred.
Jason Hartman 9:25
Yeah, good, good stuff. Well, I hope you don’t get sick of me anytime soon. But you’re probably sick of me already. And you went to college for computer and electrical engineering. And then, and you were also in the Marine Corps for eight years as well.
Vernon Grant 9:41
Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Hartman 9:43
So and then you said you started your own business. So in 2001, what kind of business is that?
Vernon Grant 9:49
Well, it was a automotive accessories. So you know, people hooking up their cars to go faster and look different and all of that stuff and I was really into that scene, I still love cars. However, I wanted to try to shift gears because you know, as the economy changed, things changed with the industry, and although I love cars, it’s just not that great have a business and more. And, and you know, we’ve made a lot of money and in the crisis, we’ve lost money. And so again, you know, with your strategies, even in those different markets, I could have been making money. So I don’t want to lose any more, so to speak,
Jason Hartman 10:39
let’s not miss any more opportunities if we can help it. So your father was a property manager. In fact, he was managing director of a property management company in the 80s and 90s. So you’ve got that background in real estate in that interest. It sounds like
Vernon Grant 10:54
yeah, I mean, I’ve been around it so much. You know, there have been times where He had to go back to Manhattan at like 3am because some commercial property that he’s met in managing some crisis happens. And so I’ve been in it and even his father was a realtor as well. So I like it. I just hadn’t had time to wrap my myself around it and and digest all the information because there’s a lot of information, but thank goodness in this day and age, you know, it’s so readily available.
Jason Hartman 11:33
Yeah, good, good stuff. Mo sounds great. Well, tell me about some of the questions you have. And you know, what, what you’re thinking of doing and let’s outline some strategy here because you’ve got a couple of different moving parts, and I think we could, you know, align those really well
Vernon Grant 11:50
for you. Okay, so, we’ve already identified a few properties that we’re getting but my main question is My parents have a particular house that they want to retire in. And when they bought it in 96 it was they purchased it at approximately $195,000. And now it’s worth about 424,000. So they’ve got quite a bit of equity in there. And
Vernon Grant 12:24
I’m not sure which
Vernon Grant 12:27
direction will benefit us best keeping in mind that you know, they still want somewhere to go to vacation and have fun and or live for several months out of the year. So I want to take that equity out and do something with it or do a 1031 exchange, but I need your advice as to which one might be best.
Jason Hartman 12:51
Okay, so the $424,000 property I believe that’s in the Tampa Florida area. Is that correct? Yes. Okay, and we Your parents are living in that area. Are they living in New York or kind of both or what?
Vernon Grant 13:05
They’re still living in New York? Okay.
Jason Hartman 13:07
So they live in New York and they want to retire in the potentially in the Tampa property. Right?
Vernon Grant 13:13
Correct. Okay, good.
Jason Hartman 13:15
So do they own a home in New York?
Vernon Grant 13:17
Yes, they do. And how much
Jason Hartman 13:18
is that worth?
Vernon Grant 13:20
That is about the same. About the same
Jason Hartman 13:25
125,000. Same price. Exactly. Okay. And what what’s their target date for retirement?
Vernon Grant 13:34
Maybe
Vernon Grant 13:36
my mom will definitely retire within the next year. So they want to move not maybe right away, I would say within the next four or so four or five years.
Jason Hartman 13:48
So is the property in Tampa rented out now? Yes, it is. Okay, and how much rent are they getting? Well, I actually I can tell you, okay, without without knowing. I’m gonna go Guess that they’re getting somewhere in the ballpark of maybe 20 $100 a month. Wow, that’s really really good is 20 222 you know, I was gonna say 2200 and I just didn’t want to be too aggressive but you know, they paid 195 for it so they’re basically getting about a point five rent to value ratio. And Vernon Isn’t it amazing? You know, I have tried this little parlor trick all over the world. And it doesn’t matter what city what language what currency. You know, it can be Paris, France, it can be Hong Kong. It can be you know, Tokyo, it doesn’t matter where it is. It could be LA, you know, it can be Tampa, Florida, or Miami or anywhere Boston, it doesn’t matter numbers and numbers, right? The the ratios are always about the same. It’s incredible. You know, if you’ve got a property that’s worth 420 For thousand dollars, you can convert that any into any currency on earth. And that rent to value ratio not not withstanding, you know, rent control or communism or you know, something like that, right. But if it’s in the free market, it’ll generally be just about the same ratio. So it’s, it’s truly amazing to me, it really is. I remember I was in Belize once looking at properties down there. And this has nothing to do with those properties because I wasn’t interested in them. But I was talking to a wealthy insurance guy, about his business and so forth. And he, I talked about this on a former episode, and I don’t even remember where he moved from now. But, you know, he, he and his family had moved, and they were renting a place in I think, Miami if I’m not mistaken. And they said it was worth I think they said it was worth 1.3 million. And I said, Oh, so you’re paying about 4000 in rent, and he said, How do you know and I you know, I just know Amazing how well that works. So listeners that let that be less than that it’s all about ratios. And those ratios hold hold true. And in every language, every currency, every geography, it doesn’t matter where so it’s really amazing. Okay, so they’re getting 2200 for their, their Tampa property, and it’s worth 400 and let’s just call it 425,000. And they’re renting it now. So is do they have some attachment to that property? You know, like, when did they buy it at night? 96 I guess did they ever live there? Or was did they just turn it into a rental and say, Hey, you know, in 20 years we’ll retire here was that they’re thinking or
Vernon Grant 16:41
that’s exactly what it was in 20 years. We’ll retire here. Okay.
Jason Hartman 16:45
All right. So, I mean, from a pure numbers perspective, I would definitely be selling that property. And you know, when they retire, they can buy another property and that retirement thing is is a moving target, you know, they might not retire on the timeframe, they’re thinking they might find a better property, they might pick a different area, you know, I don’t know, I mean, all of this stuff is such a moving target. And there’s so many opportunities and the world is changing so quickly nowadays that, you know, from a purely investment standpoint, that property definitely does not make sense, right? Because, as you well know, I would like to see them get 1% per month. So again, for 425,000 invested capital, I’d like them to get, you know, $4,250 per month, not 2200 per month. That’s just a pure numbers angle. It doesn’t include psychology. It doesn’t include sentimentality and emotions and various things like that. Of course, you can’t quantify those things very well. But then the other thing they’ve got to think about is the property in New York. Of course, when I probably wouldn’t do anything without because it would be too upsetting to their life, you know, unless they want to move and they don’t like it if they if they want to move, then I would sell that one and, and pay 20 $200 to somebody else to have the equivalent home, you know and live in New York until they retire. There’s also a question of kind of timing the real estate market because that New York market is such a frothy, cyclical market. Right. And it’s, as I always say, it’s very difficult Vernon to time any market. I would certainly say it’s, you know, it’s on the verge of being overvalued. Okay. But again, who knows, you know, that could that could, you know, if if the Trump economy really does boom, and the money loosens up, I mean, that that frothy market could go on for years more. I’m just saying that today. From a fundamentals perspective, it’s out of whack and we all we all know that Okay, did you have a deeper question here, like,
Vernon Grant 19:04
so they are also old school mentality. So it takes a bit of convincing to to let them know that, you know, it’s not about we get the property and you pay and you pay till you pay it off. Which is what they still, you know, especially my mom, she has that that mentality. She’s a nurse, by the way. So you know, she’s, she’s been working at the same job for like 40 plus years, and that they just want to pay it off. So if I introduced to them an idea that they’re going to have to pay for where they live again, it has to be, I have to offer them something more than Hey, you you have to pay your monthly mortgage on this place on this new place. So whatever it is
Jason Hartman 19:57
yet the hardest thing in life Especially for old school, people that are thinking like old school way, which, by the way, they’re not wrong. They’re just out of sequence with the time’s right? Their plan worked great. when it all started to not work was post 1971. When we went off the gold standard, then the game really changed because the lending standards changed. Money got easier and inflation reared its ugly head, and the game just totally changed. That was really the the inflection point when it all happened. The hard part, as you’ve heard me talk about on the show, Vernon, to get people to understand in any area of life, not just investing is that you can’t hear the dogs that don’t bark. They never look at what what might have happened, or what didn’t happen because they did or didn’t take another path. They only see what they did. They didn’t see what they didn’t do or what they could have done. That’s hard for the human mind to think that way. And it’s it’s that old thing. You can’t hear the dogs that don’t bark.
Vernon Grant 21:11
I’ve heard a quote sorry to cut you. I’ve heard a quote that that reflects that same thought that you can’t see past the choices you don’t make.
Jason Hartman 21:21
Oh, that’s a good quote. Who said that one? I like that.
Vernon Grant 21:24
Yeah. Oh, remember?
Jason Hartman 21:26
I like that. Let’s let’s find that I got I’m gonna I’m gonna search that. That’s a good quote. You can’t see past the choices you don’t make. Mm hmm. Oh, really? Good. Thank you for sharing that one. I like that one. I almost like that one better. It’s it’s more understandable than you can’t hear the dogs that don’t bark. But anyway, yeah, you can’t see past the choices you don’t make. So it begs the question, what choices are your parents or many other there are 10s of millions of people in this very similar situation right? When choices aren’t they making? Well, they’re choosing not to sell $850,000 worth of two properties and do 1031 exchanges where they could buy eight single family detached homes and diversified markets. That would net them around. While not net I want to say it’s really gross, but it’s net. Also, I’m kind of thinking of it differently than myopically people would think of it from accounting perspective, but it would just get them 800 or $8,000 per month in income, right. And then they could turn around and rent the place they live in and pay 2200 for that one. Right? Because in New York, or or Florida, it’s the same deal. You know, it doesn’t matter. Right, right. Right. They could rent that equivalent property. They’re living in now for about 2200 a month in New York. And then when they moved to Tampa, they could also do the same thing. But most people’s minds say, Well, hey, if I’m renting, I’m throwing money away. That’s how everybody thinks of it. Now, I used to think of it too, but when they the choice they didn’t make is they chose not to get $8,000 a month for that same value of real estate.
Vernon Grant 23:14
Right? I mean, it’s, it’s also the tools that they have for you, you can’t really understand a thing if you don’t have the tools to understand it with, right.
Jason Hartman 23:27
Yeah, you know, what that reminds me of? It’s, it’s kind of like the concept of vocabulary. Now, we’re going on a little tangent here, but when you know certain languages have, you know, fewer words from which to choose. So it literally limits the populations ability to think and, you know, on educated people or children, for example, you know, they have a smaller vocabulary, right? So they that that’s their vocabulary is literally the A tool with which you can think. And if you have a big vocabulary, you can think more thoughts. You literally can’t think a thought that you can’t express usually. Right? And so if there’s not a word for it, then, you know, it’s very hard to think about it. Right? So,
Vernon Grant 24:17
yeah, yeah. How do you express it? That’s why we come up with labels for things and containers to put things in, classify things. So we can understand. Yep,
Jason Hartman 24:27
yep, no question about it. And, you know, props to the English language that most widely spoken language on Earth. It’s also the largest language with about six 700,000 words, I believe, where if you look at like French, Spanish, Italian, I think they’ve all got around 150,000 words. So a lot fewer tools. And the reason English is that way, is you know, not because English is so great or anything, it’s just a language that happens to adopt and sort of suck up a lot of words from a lot of other languages. You know, we have also sorts of foreign words woven into the English language, right? And I guess other languages don’t do that as much as English does. So it’s just kind of interesting. Tangent alert. Alert here. Yeah. But okay, so the other thing they could do, if they don’t want to sell those properties, because I know that, you know that, that mindset that you know, your parents have, my mother has that same mindset is, when you sell something, it’s like you lost it, right? You You gave it up, right? And that mindset is very hard to, to, you know, kind of argue with, right. So the other thing they could do is they could do refi till you die, right. And that is another option because at least they could get that equity out and make it work for them. Do you know what kind of debt they have on the properties if any, or has they paid them off or
Vernon Grant 25:55
I’m not sure about the Florida property. I I know that still paying for it, but very minimal amount. And I know the one in New York, I did recently convinced them to refinance it. So refi cash out. So that’s how we’re getting those extra few properties that I was just mentioning to you. And I’ll be at the Memphis store by the way.
Jason Hartman 26:21
Oh, good. Hey, I look forward to seeing you at the Memphis property tour with that. Boy, I’ll be at Memphis in six days, I haven’t even it’s right around the corner. So we look forward to seeing you there. And by the time people listen to this, that will have probably already happened.
Vernon Grant 26:37
So we’re going to buy about three properties with that with the equity.
Jason Hartman 26:43
Okay, how much are you pulling out to buy the three properties?
Vernon Grant 26:46
Ah, I think so far total it came out to about 68,000 that we have to put down
Jason Hartman 26:56
that’s not bad. Not so basically for 68 thousand dollars, you can buy three properties, you’ll gain or they are you or, you know, both of your guests gain diversification because you’ll be in a totally different market, right, which will be good. And those three properties should produce somewhere in the neighborhood of, you know, 2700 to $3,000 per month in income, right?
Vernon Grant 27:20
Yeah. Okay, good cash flow, actually,
Jason Hartman 27:22
yeah, fantastic. And once once your parents see, you know, sometimes you got to do it to really internalize it or understand it, you know, in your inner gut. Once they see that, and they actually do that deal. And they see that look, here, we’re getting $1,000 per month for each of these properties, for example, and I’m just pulling out around number I don’t know the exact properties you’re looking at, then, you know, they’ll think well, these three properties with only $68,000 down, we generated a gross of $3,000 per month. They’re gonna be thinking, Well, here, we’ve got $425,000 in this property in Tampa, and all we get is 2200 a month.
Vernon Grant 28:08
And it’s only breakeven sometimes.
Jason Hartman 28:11
So that will probably go a long way in getting them to see the light, if you will, you know, and I know it’s it’s hard, you know, I mean, I take my own mother’s example, the countless conversations, had, you know, slash arguments that I’ve had with her about this stuff. You know, it’s funny. This is the funny thing. Another funny thing about the way the human mind works, and I don’t know why it’s this way, it just is. But we will trust a stranger, a total stranger, more than we will trust our own friends and family, the people we know well, and I don’t know why that is, you know, there’s an old saying familiarity breeds contempt. And even if we love these people, or you know like them really well There’s a familiarity, we just don’t respect that as much as we respect someone, you know, at a
Vernon Grant 29:06
distance, it happens all the time, even like, let’s say, my dad, if he’s having some medical issues like with eating and stuff like that, because I’ve taught myself so much about health and so on. I tell him, okay, this is what you should eat. And this is why you’re having this problem because you’re doing this and he is not listening to me at all. And then one day, he goes to the doctor, the doctor tells him, that’s when he changes. I said to him, what is it because I don’t have a PhD or an MD, and that’s why you don’t listen to me. Come on. I’ve been telling you this for years.
Jason Hartman 29:45
Yeah, no, you’re right. But even if you did have a PhD and an MD, you still would be family and he would not listen to you. That’s so true. It’s just it’s just the way I don’t know why that is. It’s just there’s all kinds of these funny quirks about the way the human mind works, but it just is just an odd, odd thing the way it works. So I think with your folks that that refi plan is really going to help when they see those three properties performing. Now, are those going to be all three in Memphis? Or are those? Have you purchased those properties yet? Or don’t tell me about that
Vernon Grant 30:20
we’re under contract. So we’re just getting our approval stuff. We’re already pre approved, and we just need all the paperwork and so they can run by the underwriters.
Jason Hartman 30:30
Okay, good stuff, and where are those properties?
Vernon Grant 30:33
Those are all in Memphis. Okay.
Jason Hartman 30:35
So after you do those three in Memphis, if they’re, you know, if they decide to sell one of the two properties, and by the way, I didn’t ask you Do they own any other properties? Yes, they do. They own a couple pieces of land. And one other property but that property,
Vernon Grant 30:55
you know, they lost some money on it. So they’re just, it’s rented and the prices re appreciating again. So we’re just waiting it out.
Jason Hartman 31:04
Tell us a little bit about that one.
Vernon Grant 31:06
That one is actually also in,
Vernon Grant 31:10
in South Florida that is near Tampa.
Vernon Grant 31:16
And I forgot exactly
Jason Hartman 31:18
how much is it worth? Do you know that the metrics on it, what it’s worth and what it rents for,
Vernon Grant 31:22
not what it rents for, but I do know they purchased it at 105. And the current value is 89.
Jason Hartman 31:31
Okay, so it’s gone down in value, and that one is probably got a pretty good rent to value ratio. So oddly, that one that they lost the money on is probably the one that they maybe most likely should keep. However, I have a feeling and I don’t know this but I have a feeling that that’s a condo isn’t it?
Vernon Grant 31:52
It absolutely is.
Jason Hartman 31:55
And I don’t like condos unless they’re very good deals. I just don’t like condos. And there have been a lot of condo problems in various areas around the country. And, and look listeners, I don’t want you to hear me say that I’ll never do a condo, I will do a condo. It’s just got to be a much better deal. Okay, there’s got to be something to offset the fact that it’s a condo. Okay. I just, I just don’t like condos, they have a whole new set of potential problems with them. Okay, so that one, you know, that probably rents for around 900,000 a month? I
Vernon Grant 32:28
bet right? Yeah, I’m thinking it because I remember seeing the numbers. It was like anywhere from eight to nine.
Jason Hartman 32:34
Yeah, so so that’s, that’s fine in terms of rent to value ratio. Now, the one thing we didn’t explore on any of these properties, by the way, is the debt structure on them, you know, what is the is they say the capital stack, right? You know, if you have a high interest rate loan on one, or an adjustable rate loan on one, and you know, maybe you have a low interest rate on another, these things could also influence your thinking. on selling or refinancing or, you know, when you refinance, if you’ve got a very low interest rate first loan on the property, occasionally, it’ll make sense to put a second loan on it, sometimes not. So there are there are numerous factors here, right? We, you know, I just want to make sure everybody knows that. Maybe the age of the property, the location, you know, properties. Some areas in Florida, for example, have really high insurance cost properties in New York have really high property taxes, right. So, you know, there are multiple things to think about. And in New York, you might be in a rent controlled area, and that’s really bad as an owner, but it could be really good as a tenant. So there are all kinds of other dimensions, but what were you going to say?
Vernon Grant 33:48
I was gonna ask what so I am assuming that the advice would be the most optimal thing would be a 1031 exchange, correct?
Jason Hartman 33:58
Oh, yeah. The 1031 exchange Is is the way to go for sure. Because it allows you to basically trade properties all your life and defer defer defer the gain. And, you know, listeners also need to be very mindful. I was looking at one of my properties I’ve been over the past several years, I’ve been reworking my portfolio and selling some properties and trading them for others. And so I’ve got this one property in an old market. We used to do Mobile, Alabama, and it’s been very good to me, I bought it when there was something called the go zone going on. And you hear me talk about that on the old episodes. Yeah. And that was a tremendous tax benefit. Like so many government policies that eventually turned into a mess because the you know, so many investors got attracted there that the properties became overvalued and we stopped recommending it but our, our clients who got into the zone early enough, did very well and including me, you know, this particular property is only worth about the same as well. I purchased it for, but because I had such tremendous goes on tax benefits, I would I would potentially sell it and break even. But I would really need to do a 1031 tax deferred exchange on that property because, and I asked my accountant, I said, Hey, dude, what’s my depreciation recapture on this property? And guess what he said. So then by the way, this property’s worth about $170,000 give or take. But if I sold that outright, and just broke even on paper, by the time the tax consequences came up, I would get at $98,000 in depreciation recapture on which I would have to pay taxes. Wow. So, you know, in a way you can get kind of trapped into this real estate game, which isn’t all bad. Okay. It’s actually quite good. But you’ve got to really think of it and, you know, people make mistakes sometimes and they’ll sell a property thinking, Hey, you know, I’m just breaking even or I’m making 20 grand, it’s no big deal, I’ll just pay the tax on the 20 grand. No, you’ve already taken a bunch of tax benefits over the years here that you got as a deduction. And now, if you don’t do a 1031 exchange, you got to recapture those and pay them. Okay. So things aren’t always as simple as they look. So be careful. Always consult a tax advisor, and make sure you have one that knows about real estate.
Vernon Grant 36:34
Yeah, certainly.
Jason Hartman 36:36
Very, very important. So any other thoughts or questions you want to share with the audience?
Vernon Grant 36:41
At what point do you know if it should be a refi till you die versus 1031 exchange?
Jason Hartman 36:50
Well, really what tells you that is the rent to value ratio? And on both of those properties, ideally, if there was no The sort of life hassle factor or emotional factor involved from just a cold pure number standpoint, I would definitely be selling those properties. Okay, and doing 1031 exchanges, but I do, of course understand there are other considerations. So, you know, those those are there are other factors to weigh in there. And, you know, if your folks are going to retire in two years, it’s looking like the markets going to continue booming pretty well. I mean, that’s what most people think i think that you know, the money money supply is flowing into real estate. For all the Trump reasons I’ve mentioned on prior episodes of, you know, our for him being our first real estate president, you know, eliminating or softening, Dodd Frank, etc, etc. If they’re going to retire in two years, just stay put make life easy and keep that in New York property. You know, it’s only two years not a big deal. Right. And, and but, but I would really consider selling the Tampa Bay Florida property.
Vernon Grant 38:01
Okay, and I guess purchasing another one that they like somewhere to live down there.
Jason Hartman 38:07
Yeah, or three or four more and, and then they can buy back into that market or they might really decide they just want to rent. Because maybe that’s, you know, that’s not their final perfect location. Maybe it’s not their dream home, maybe they want to have some flexibility, you know, maybe they want to go on a cruise for a year or travel. I mean, renting is just so, so, so much easier, you know,
Vernon Grant 38:31
and that’s true. You don’t have all those costs that you have to worry about. Yeah, yeah,
Jason Hartman 38:37
no question about it. It’s it’s really quite easy to be a renter, you know, and you don’t have to unload a property. You know, you can just give 30 days notice and move out. You don’t have to show it and have people invading your privacy and it’s just much easier. There’s a lot of hidden costs in homeowner homeownership to
Vernon Grant 38:55
upkeep and all that stuff.
Jason Hartman 38:58
You know, a lot of times They’re spending working on their house and going to the hardware store and when you’re a renter, you just you just live there. No, it’s much easier. So, all good stuff to think about. But Vernon Hey, thanks for coming on the show and sharing your story and your parents story with us. And, you know, hopefully they will listen to this podcast if you can get them to do that. And I hope it helps them and we will look forward to seeing you at our upcoming creating wealth seminar in Memphis property tour next weekend.
Vernon Grant 39:28
No problem. Thank you so much for your help and time.
Jason Hartman 39:31
My pleasure, happy investing.
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